Turkey Referendum, good or bad?

Do you think that the constitutional amendments passed in a referendum vote will be good for Turkey

  • Yes, these amendments will stabilize Turkey, making the country more prosperous and more powerful

    Votes: 2 12.5%
  • No, more executive power will only make the country more repressive and authoritarian, undermining i

    Votes: 14 87.5%

  • Total voters
    16

Ivanov

Oathkeeper
Alright so I wanted to get your opinions on this one. Turkey had a referendum this Sunday and voted in favor of constitutional amendments centralizing more power in the hands of the President. Among the numerous changes are:

  • The president becomes the head of the executive, as well as the head of state, and retains ties to a political party.
  • He or she will be given sweeping new powers to appoint ministers, prepare the budget, choose the majority of senior judges and enact certain laws by decree.
  • The president alone will be able to announce a state of emergency and dismiss parliament.
  • Parliament will lose its right to scrutinise ministers or propose an enquiry. However, it will be able to begin impeachment proceedings or investigate the president with a majority vote by MPs. Putting the president on trial would require a two-thirds majority.
  • The number of MPs will increase from 550 to 600.
  • Presidential and parliamentary elections will be held on the same day every five years. The president will be limited to two terms.


As with anything, there are two sides to this argument. Now you can go look them up for yourself and reply with what you think, but here is how I see it. My arguments are simple, I get to the bottom line right away. You know how when sometimes you want to do something, and you don't tell someone the real reason you want to do it and instead make up 2 or 3 feeble excuses for why you want to do something? Yeah I won't do that here. I'm sure there are many pros and cons to these amendments, but this is the overall picture of how I see it. Let me know your opinions.

Pro:

Turkey is a fragile democracy, ridden with economic problems, terrorism, divisiveness etc. Centralizing power in a person that yes, has personal political ambitions, but also cares about his people and the prosperity of Turkey, will partly tear down state bureaucracy, making it more efficient and in turn making the Turkish state more powerful and the country more prosperous. Democracy is a mess. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Especially in a country like Turkey, they need a strong leader to hold it all together. Under Erdogan, more conservative values will be pushed forth, giving Turkey a stronger Muslim identity and better civil cohesiveness. I'm merely trying to see this from a Turkish perspective and get an idea of its best interests.

Con:

Yet, 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'. It can be argued that in the long term, relatively unchecked power will have dire consequences in modernizing the country. Sure in the short term, things might look good. But one aspect of extractive political institutions where power is narrowly concentrated is that they lead to extractive economic institutions not inclusive ones. Meaning that citizens will have less chance of participation in economic life of a country, and that economic growth will not be sustained as no new technologies will be implemented on a mass scale as they undermine the power of an authoritarian regime (reference to the book Why Nations Fail). This constitutional reform may lead to short term economic prosperity and law and order in Turkey, but in regards to long term prospects, the future looks uncertain. 

 
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I voted for no because although the government of Turkey will become more centralized, this won't help in the long run. This is just another path that would lead to a totalitarian government due to how unchecked the president becomes and how much power he/she gets. What Turkey needs to understand is that Democracy isn't the problem, but that Erdoğan himself is.

Good poll by the way.

 
I hope the army kills the little shit
The army that is left is pretty much loyalist to Erdogan. The failed coup resulted in one of the worst 'cleansing' of any opposition to Erdogan - if a similar thing had happened anywhere else then people would have made a big deal about it, but because Turkey has EU by the balls (they pretty much control how many refugees get through to EU) and it has traditionally been a US ally - noone is doing anything. 

It's basically the Saudi situation. Everyone know of the human rights situation in Saudi Arabia + everyone knows that Saudis are some of the richest/biggest backers of terrorism world-wide, but because of the strategic alliance between US-Saudi + EU-Saudi, noone does anything. 

Erdogan was a good leader for Turkey, but over the last few years he has become more and more extreme, some of the things he says about women's rights and other religions is complete bs. He is going to terrible in the long run. 

 
I remember everyone cheering when news first came in about an apparent secular military coup. Now everyone is crying totalitarianism after a mostly-democratic referendum. That seems like staggering hypocrisy to me. I think the real issue is that we see Turkey as a country on the border between an Islamic shithole and a nice Western secular country. We want them going in our sort of direction, and we really don't care how it happens or how many of their people share our values. And what do you know, a lot them feel the same way on the other side. I think western outrage, sanctions or anything else we could possibly try would just fuel Erdogan's side, so there's nothing we can do.

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'hmm you like democracy but cry when it's taken away democratically' isn't as clever a take as you think it is

just because an autocrat uses democratic ends to achieve his goals doesn't make him a democrat, and just because non democratic means are used to eject an autocrat doesn't make the end result less democratic than the situation that existed before. the nazis were voted in and then bombed out, for instance

people are way too attached to the specific machinery of democratic systems as opposed to the spirit of liberal democracy. a coup nor an election is not necessarily good or bad, its moral value depends on the context in which it occurs and what its result is. the systems are always imperfect and its complete foolishness to make a one to one association between the situation of actual democracy and the end product of systems meant to bring about democracy

 
A lot of things need to be fixed in Turkey. Everyone just wants them to be quiet and not do anything dangerous. Democracy is great for that. But it's not an effective cure. It simply delays their doom in hopes that some president will come by and fix everything.

People talk of democracy as if it solves corruption, but the corrupt are good at playing the game the way they need to and democracies do little to stop them. Democracy only handles mild corruption, perfect for stable countries like US and Australia. What Turkey needs is a less restrictive democracy.

I don't see things becoming any worse under this change specifically. It allows the president more control where it is important and yet it's not an authoritarian enough change to let a tyrant into power.

 
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